maybe being, as most people were -- whether it was hawthorne at one extreme or even theodore parker at the other extreme -- maybe being racist had something to do with it. but he believed that -- and maybe there was some validity to one argument, that if the institution of slavery -- the institution -- is reprehensible, which it is -- they agreed about that. they disagreed about the means by which it should be changed. and in a sense, pierce was a quietist. pierce thought you leave just it alone, and eventually, it will go away. hawthorne thought that, too, actually. c-span: how'd he ever get elected president? >> guest: pierce? c-span: yes. >> guest: dark horse. you know, i mean, the sort of mechanics of the election of 1852 were such that he was able to get in. i don't remember on which ballot, but eventually, he was able to get in. and it was also because he didn't -- he offended the least amount of people. he was one of those kinds of candidates that, you know, the south could deal with him. the south thought it was ok. and the north -- well, he was still a northerner. he's still,